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Wanderer
Anmeldungsdatum: 08.05.2006
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 Verfasst am: 11. Jun 2006 21:53 Titel: Das römische Bürgerrecht |
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Guten Abend.
Ein römischer Bürger hatte ja das Recht, sich bei Anklagen auf den Kaiser als Richter zu berufen. Der Angeklagte wurde dann nach Rom überstellt, wo man sich darum gekümmert hat.
Hat sich der römische Kaiser echt um jede Gerischtsverhandlung gegen einen römischen Bürger gekümmert oder hatte er dafür Vertreter? |
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GoTo
Ehrenmoderator
Anmeldungsdatum: 08.09.2004
Beiträge: 701
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| Verfasst am: 14. Jun 2006 19:55 Titel: |
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Puh, das ist mal eine Frage.
Ich kann dir mit ziemlicher Sicherheit sagen, dass ein römischer "Vollbürger" das Recht hatte ein Toga zu tragen und zum Kriegsdienst musste, gleichzeitig auch bei den Wahlen beteiligt war.
Auch stand im eine Verhandlung zu, ob er jedoch direkt den kaiser als Richter anrufen durfte, weiß ich nicht.
Jedoch ist es schwer vorstellbar, dass der Kaiser selbst für jeden "Dahergelaufenen" Römer selbst Richter spielte, so wäre dieser mehr mit dem richten, als dem regieren beschäftigt gewesen. |
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MacHarms
Anmeldungsdatum: 11.11.2004
Beiträge: 622
Wohnort: Hamburg
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| Verfasst am: 15. Jun 2006 10:30 Titel: |
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Bei http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provokationsrecht habe ich folgenden Satz gefunden
In der Kaiserzeit wurde schließlich jede Berufung an einen höheren Richter bis hinauf zum Kaiser selbst als Provokation bezeichnet.
Das bedeutet, daß der Kaiser "letzte Instanz" war, nachdem vorher alle gerichtlichen Instanzen (unter ihm) ausgeschöpft worden waren.
War´s das?
Gruß von der Waterkant,
Peter |
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GoTo
Ehrenmoderator
Anmeldungsdatum: 08.09.2004
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| Verfasst am: 04. Jul 2006 15:53 Titel: |
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Ist es denn überhaupt realistisch, dass der Kaiser selbst eine Verhandlung als Richter geleitet hat, sofern es keine Staatsinteressen/seine eigenes Interesse bestand? |
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sirius
Anmeldungsdatum: 16.04.2006
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Wohnort: Erlangen
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| Verfasst am: 05. Jul 2006 00:20 Titel: |
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Nein, das ist es nicht.
Aber das ist übliches staatliches Verfahren - bis heute:
Urteile ergehen "im Namen des Volkes", "die Stadt" handelt durch ihren Oberbürgermeister, dieser wird als Handelnder vertreten durch einen Dezernenten, dieser oft durch einen Amtsleiter. Und auf dem Briefkopf eines Ministers steht, was dessen Ressortleiter vorschlägt.
Für dieses Verfahren gibt es sogar einen Begriff: "U-Schreiben", d.h. Schreiben zur Unterschrift.
So oder so ähnlich stelle ich mir das Gericht des Kaisers vor. Und so ähnlich war es wohl auch.
Untertänige Grüße
Sirius
_________________
Macht bedeutet nicht, Geschichte zu machen, sondern Geschichte zu interpretieren. |
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MacHarms
Anmeldungsdatum: 11.11.2004
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Wohnort: Hamburg
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| Verfasst am: 05. Jul 2006 16:21 Titel: |
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Das "staatliche Verfahren" zur Römerzeit ist mit heute schwer zu vergleichen, weil es damals eine Gewaltenteilung im heutigen Sinne nicht gab. Der römische Kaiser - ranghöchster Vertreter der Exekutive - war zugleich auch oberster Richter ("letzte Instanz"). Daß er dazu "höchstderoselbst" Gerichtsverhandlungen leitete, kann ich mir auch kaum vorstellen. Vielleicht kann man das Verfahren am ehesten mit dem Begnadigungsrecht des Bundespräsidenten vergleichen (Art. 60 Abs. 2 GG), und auch der kann diese Befugnis auf andere Behörden übertragen (Abs. 3 ebenda).
Das U in "U-Schreiben" bedeutet übrigens nicht "Unterschrift", sondern "Urschriftlich", d.h. das Originalschreiben und nicht eine Abschrift oder Kopie wird weitergereicht.
Gruß von der Waterkant,
Peter |
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sirius
Anmeldungsdatum: 16.04.2006
Beiträge: 85
Wohnort: Erlangen
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| Verfasst am: 05. Jul 2006 19:10 Titel: U-Schreiben |
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stimmt, McHarms, und meine Nachlässigkeit zeigt, wie sehr sich im Alltag die Abkürzungssprache von ihrer ursprünglichen Bedeutung entfernt. Ach ja .. die Verwaltung!
Ich würde gern mal das Gesicht eines römischen Kaisers sehen, wenn er so per Zeitmaschine in die Gegenwart versetzt, die heutige Verwaltung sehen würde. Wäre er wütend? Irritiert? Neugierig? Beeindruckt? Oder würde er nachdenklich auf seine Verwaltung schauen und sagen: principiis obsta!?
mit nachdenklichen grüßen
sirius
_________________
Macht bedeutet nicht, Geschichte zu machen, sondern Geschichte zu interpretieren. |
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MacHarms
Anmeldungsdatum: 11.11.2004
Beiträge: 622
Wohnort: Hamburg
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| Verfasst am: 06. Jul 2006 17:36 Titel: |
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Ein römischer Kaiser, per Zeitreise zu uns versetzt, würde wahrscheinlich die Hände über dem Kopf zusammenschlagen; er würde insbesondere kein Verständnis für unser föderalistisches System aufbringen können. So sehe ich das.
Gruß von der Waterkant,
Peter |
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sirius
Anmeldungsdatum: 16.04.2006
Beiträge: 85
Wohnort: Erlangen
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| Verfasst am: 06. Jul 2006 23:12 Titel: Kaiser und Föderalismus |
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Na ja, mit Provinzfürsten musste sich auch der Kaiser herumschlagen. Das Reich war in Provinzen eingeteilt, und solange die Statthalter von dort ihre Steuern ablieferten (was sie ja im allgemeinen im Vorgriff tun mussten, wovon der fiscus profitierte und worunter die Untertanen litten) und solange er keine Aufstände provozierte, konnte der princeps doch zufrieden sein. Freilich im Gegensatz zu heute: Bei der zentralverwaltung des Reichs hatten die Statthalter nicht mitzureden und abhängig waren sie vom willen des kaisers. Das sehen unsere Provinzfürsten anders. Andererseits: Der Kaiser mochte auch sonst keine Einschränkung seiner auctoritas - und seit Montesquieu haben wir da doch ein wenig hinzu gelernt. Und das ist gut so.
Denkt demokratisch
Sirius
_________________
Macht bedeutet nicht, Geschichte zu machen, sondern Geschichte zu interpretieren. |
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randymitchel795
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randymitchel795
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| Verfasst am: 02. Aug 2022 10:02 Titel: contact help center |
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mitchelsamuel61
Anmeldungsdatum: 27.06.2022
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mitchelsamuel61
Anmeldungsdatum: 27.06.2022
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mitchelsamuel61
Anmeldungsdatum: 27.06.2022
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mitchelsamuel61
Anmeldungsdatum: 27.06.2022
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Irene24
Anmeldungsdatum: 13.02.2023
Beiträge: 1
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| Verfasst am: 20. Feb 2023 12:31 Titel: |
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ein sehr interessantes Forum, es gibt immer etwas Neues und Interessantes, es ist gut, dass ich Sie gefunden habe, und Sie können Geschichte lehren und sich erinnern, wenn Sie es vergessen haben - aber im Grunde ist dies natürlich Wissen über das Neue) |
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